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Lance S. Bush's avatar

I’m thrilled to see moral psychology here on Substack. I loved the Atlas of Moral Psychology (especially the Machery and Stich articles, which I use in my classes). I also teach moral psychology, but I specialize in a fairly uncommon area: the psychology of metaethics, and, in particular, in the question of whether nonphilosophers are moral realists or antirealists.

Given my interests, I was surprised to see the conversation move straight to a discussion about metaethics. I was also surprised that your students seem more drawn to realism than has been my experience. I suspect it may depend a lot on what they’re presented with in class and how the topic is introduced and framed. I usually get an overwhelming majority staunchly committed to some type of antirealism.

In the interests of clarity, I use the terms “realism” and “antirealism” to refer to the positions that there are stance-independent moral facts, and that there are not, respectively. I typically include most common forms of relativism as a type of antirealism, since such views typically hold that there are moral truths, but that their truth depends on the stances of different individuals or cultures (hence, there are moral truths, but they are stance-dependent). I am an antirealist myself, even though as you may know moral realism is the most common position among analytic philosophers (the 2020 PhilPapers survey found that 62% of respondents endorsed moral realism). So I’m sympathetic to what seem like antirealist leanings in the article.

However, I’m a lot less confident that nonphilosophers are especially inclined towards realism or antirealism. You say:

>>"All of us—even moral psychologists who argue for moral relativism—tend to feel that the answers to morality are etched in stone."

This does strike me as a little different from saying people are moral realists; one could feel morality is this way, even if one rejects this on reflection. This remark is also qualified with the term “tend,” and the use of “all” may be nonliteral (after all, we could presumably find at least some people with unconventional psychology). However, even with these qualifiers in place, I’m not convinced most people feel that morality is “etched in stone,” if, by this, you mean that people tend to feel that there are stance-independent moral truths (i.e., that moral realism is true).

You say something similar here:

>>"The potential existence of objective morality—of true answers to questions of right and wrong—is alluring to everyone [...]"

Once again, I’m not sure this is true. It’s not alluring to me at all. The extent to which it’s alluring to anyone in general strikes me as an open question. If I had to wager, I’d wager that this is not the case.

You’ll rarely see me come to defense of analytic philosophers, as I’m almost always critical in practice, but I also think this conclusion is a bit quick:

>>"That we can’t put our trust in the ethical absolutes of philosophers argues against objective morality, at least from philosophy."

It’s not clear to me how the rejection of absolute moral rules argues against objective morality. Moral absolutism is a feature of normative moral principles, and has very little to do with metaethics. A moral antirealist could endorse absolute moral rules just as readily as a realist could. Likewise, the mere existence of biases influencing philosophers doesn’t strike me as a good reason to think morality isn’t objective.

I also worry that you’re a bit inconsistent with your use of terms like “objective” and “subjective.” These terms have very specific technical uses among philosophers. When it comes to metaethics, “objective” often refers to stance-independence, while “subjective” often reverse to a way in which the truth of moral claims is indexed to the standards of individuals, allowing the truth status of a moral claim to vary, typically in a stance-dependent way. Yet several of your uses of these terms differ from these technical uses, e.g.:

>>"But despite how clear cut these rules may seem, religious morality—at least in practice—is far from objective. "

One problem is that religious texts require human interpretation, which is inherently subjective. People must make inferences about the meaning of ambiguous rules—does “do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery”

That something must be judged from the point of view of individuals and is thereby subject to whatever biases or predispositions they have is a different sense of “subjective” than the use of “subjective” in the metaethical sense.

Likewise for your use of the term “objective” which is presumably intended to serve as a contrast to this use of “subjective.” It’s not clear whether you intend to use these terms in their metaethical sense or not. If you do, then these uses of the terms are inappropriate. If not, then it could mislead readers to use non-technical uses of terms like “objective” and “subjective” in the middle of a discussion about metaethics, where those terms have different, technical uses.

I’m also a bit puzzled by this reference to relativism:

>>"You can also see evidence for moral relativism in the change of official religious stances over time."

What form of relativism are you referring to? There are at least three major distinctions to make:

Metaethical relativism: The claim that the truth of moral claims is indexed to and can vary in accord with different moral standards, typically those of individuals or cultures

Normative relativism: The claim that one ought tolerate other individuals or groups with different moral standards

Descriptive relativism: The claim that there are differences in people’s fundamental moral beliefs and values

There are subcategories within these positions, as well, e.g., agent and appraiser metaethical relativism. Generally speaking, changes in moral standards over time would not be good evidence of metaethical relativism. Nothing about nonrelativist moral positions would suggest that moral standards wouldn’t change over time, nor is change over time especially or clearly more consistent with moral relativism than with various realist positions.

As such, I’m not sure what you mean when you say things like this:

>>"Our aim here is not to be critical of religious foundations of morality, but only to show that no matter where you get your morals—from faith or secular principles—your values are less objective than you might believe."

Why would evidence that moral standards have changed over time indicate that a person’s moral standards are less objective than they might believe? What does that mean?

Next, you say this:

>>"This can be a scary realization, because the alternative—moral relativism—seems to provide a slippery slope"

When you use the phrase “the alternative,” this implies one’s only options are to believe morality is objective or relative. This is not the case. There are a variety of antirealist positions other than relativism, e.g., error theory, expressivism, and views like my own. If anything, relativism may be fairly unpopular among analytic moral antirealists.

Next, you say:

>>"The psychologist Will Gervais has spent much of his career showing that people intuitively agree with this trope, and consequently mistrust moral relativists—especially atheists, who disavow God’s moral law."

I can look over the study a bit more carefully, but does it assess whether people mistrust moral relativists in particular? At a glance, the emphasis seems to be on atheism, not people’s metaethical views, but I didn’t look carefully and may have overlooked something.

Later on, you say:

>>"Our moral minds dictate our subjective perception of morality, and they also compel us to see those subjective perceptions as objective—and to attack and dehumanize the "other side"."

I’m still unclear on what you mean by “subjective” here, but I am even more puzzled by the claim that our minds compel us to see our perceptions as objective: is this an empirical claim? On what empirical literature is this claim based?

There are a few other points of concern, but I’ll confine my questions and concerns to these. My more general worry is whether the terms “objective,” “relative,” and “subjective” as they appear here are being used in a clear and consistent way.

I study whether nonphilosophers regard morality as “objective” or “relative” (I usually eschew these terms) or something else, and the way you use the terms in this article doesn’t seem to correspond to their use in the empirical literature.

If it’d be of interest I’d be happy to direct you to some of that literature to see if the way these terms are used in that literature do strike you as what you’re aiming at, or if they’re just addressing different concepts altogether using the same name. Either way, thanks for the article and it’s great to see discussions at the intersection of metaethics and psychology.

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Misha Valdman's avatar

Cool essay, but you’re on one side of a big meta-ethical antinomy: there must be reasons; there can’t be reasons. You’re defending “there can’t be reasons.” But you’re doing it with reasons. And so you’re really defending “there must be reasons.” In any case, the way to resolve this antinomy, believe it or not, isn’t with subjectivity or objectivity but by realizing that there’s no such thing as the subjective/objective distinction. I mean, think about it. Why would evolution want you to question your own appearances?

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